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24 Feb 2023 20:56:09
Leafs send Robertson, Kerfoot, Hiroven and Voit Arizona for Crouse with 2 million salary kept. Arizona then deals Kerfoot.

Leafs send Sandin to Canucks for Schenn and a 2nd in 2023. Same deal could be for Soucy, Brown, Lyibushkin or Mayfield. Sandin is considered a potential top pairing guy the others (except Lyibushkin) are UFAs. Leafs might have to add a prospect like Hollowell for some of these guys?


1.) 25 Feb 2023 05:51:00

Imho, if you’re trying to pry a 6’4” 220lb 25yr old power forward with 20+ goal potential on a reasonable contract away from another team for your playoff run, you will need to offer more than a collection of undersized prospects and depth pieces. Especially if you’re looking to have salary retained.
Thinking a 1st and a good prospect like Knies gets the trade done, but the Leafs are hoping Knies develops into a player like Crouse in 2-3 yrs.

However, if you are all in now, maybe you need Crouse now, not a potential replica in 2-3 yrs. Don’t worry about the Leaf’s cap next year, it’s already problematic.

Although Sandin is a good young defender, he’s been with the Leafs since 2018, and has yet to prove he is remotely close to top pair quality. Based on ice time, he is currently a 5-6, and, at 23 (in 2 wks), getting close to a “what-you-see-is-what-you-get” appraisal.
Not saying they should give up on him, but, again, if you’re trying to convince a rival gm to give you what you need for a playoff run (like a rugged, shutdown d), you have to give something good, and outbid others. Sandin is a decent trade chip, as he still has potential.

2.) 25 Feb 2023 12:14:12
Burner, didn't realize a player who in his first 6 years maxed out at 34 points was a player who carried a ton of value. He is third line player on most teams who can fill in on the 2nd if needed.

And what is real funny is you use the term "potential" when referring to a 25 year old Crouse but "what you see is what you get" when referring to a 23 yr old dman. I think your forgetting more often then not dman take longer to develop than forwards do.

The Leafs are losing in both of these proposals. You dont trade a 23 yr old good young dman for a ufa you have no plans on keeping who will play 3rd pair minutes.

3.) 25 Feb 2023 14:21:06
I think the response to Burner89 about sums it up. Leafs would probably be open to substitution of most of their prospects except Knies for Crouse.

Sandin is considered at least a #2 guy by the experts and teams ask about him.

Leafs could go cheaper by looking at Ritchie and Njustadt but I think it is better to go for a hockey deal like Crouse, Wilson, Mantha, Bertuzzi, etc. then get another team involved to save cap. My personal favourite is Wilson but I don’t know if he is available?

If they get a decent left winger O’Reilly can become the third line Center and if Knies lives up to his potential Bunting may be moving to the third line next year?

4.) 25 Feb 2023 15:49:14
@Burner, I don't think Crouse's value is that high. I just think Arizona is not that willing to trade him away

5.) 26 Feb 2023 00:07:02
When I said “potential”, I was referring to Crouse being a 20 goal scorer.
He’s at 19 now, despite playing second or third line on a weak Coyotes team.
Who knows what he would get playing in the Leafs top six?

My point was that if you want one of the best young players from another team, and expect to outbid everyone else, you have to offer something good, not spare parts. And you’re right, the Coyotes are only offering Crouse because they hope to hit a home run. Pretending that offering less to get the trade done is an exercise in futility.

The Leafs are in a difficult position. Dubas has retained their best players, but it’s caused the team to be very top-heavy. 53m to the six highest paid players?!
That leaves less than 30m to fill 17 spots, including the goalie. You need a lot of 1-2m dollar players to fill out the roster, making almost all of them the type of players other teams already have, rather than being attractive trade chips. Kerfoot makes 3.5m, but he is average, bottom six material at best. Other teams already have guys like that.

Sandin, however, is an attractive trade chip upon which I thought Dubas might capitalize. Sure he has potential, but I was using facts like ice time, points, size, etc, to assess his value now. Leafs will probably keep him, but that means giving up something else valuable that other teams don’t already have, like another 1st rd pick.

Dubas has done very well keeping the team competitive in the regular season despite this cap handicap, but we are talking about what he can realistically do to improve their postseason. He has only so many 1st rd picks. He MUST find a way to make the defence, and the bottom six for that matter, bigger and more truculent.
Or it will be a waste of 8 days.

6.) 26 Feb 2023 02:31:04
And, not to belabour the point, but I meant to add that I looked up the prospects in the above proposed trade for Crouse, and saw expressions like “undersized, good hockey sense, but needs to improve skating, etc. ”.

7.) 26 Feb 2023 02:43:22
Neiderrieter went for a 2nd 2 drafts from now. He is better offensively and defensively than Crouse. I take Nino anyday. Robertson, Hirvonen and Voit are not spare parts, they are prospects. But following the skewed ideology by many on this site, all Leaf prospects are crap.

8.) 26 Feb 2023 11:37:35
Do you know how many successful NHL players were undersized as prospects? Marty St. Loius, Marchand, Fleury just to start with many more. How many guys needed to work on skating? Most of the present day NHL group. That's why they are prospects. Some make it, many dont. All prospects have things they need to work on or figure out.

Bottom line, you dont give up 3 prospects for a 3rd liner or a third pairing dman unless you need to clear contracts for cap reasons or space in your top 50.

9.) 27 Feb 2023 13:37:10
Burner's take on Crouse is that of a "hockey" person who gets it.

Crouse is a big guy with pop, and size still matters in the NHL playoffs.

As hockey fans of a particular team you can get bent out of shape because someone thinks your offer isn't good enough, but most hockey observers would see that adding a guy like Crouse to a playoff lineup is a big addition that can't be measured in stats alone. You either get that or you don't.

Another great thing about Crouse is that he's under contract for 4 more years @ 4.3M/ season. That's a great value contract, especially for a guy who hasn't hit his prime. He's also never had the opportunity to play for a good NHL team. I'd grab him in a second.

10.) 27 Feb 2023 19:19:47
Chickenfoot, never said I woulldnt trade for or want Cfouse on my team. I just wouldnt pay that price Burner suggested. Just me and my opinion.

11.) 27 Feb 2023 20:55:18
Hey COULSON, I respect your opinion, and was also sharing mine. (I was replying to the thread, not you specifically. ) ?.



16 Feb 2023 03:41:22
Leafs offer Sandin, 2023 1st, Krall, and Hollowell for Chyckrun with 30% salary held. The trade goes through Chicago which costs another prospect to hold another 50% salary.


1.) 16 Feb 2023 11:28:34
Not close for Chychrun especially with retention.

2.) 16 Feb 2023 12:57:46
I don't think the Leafs have the right pieces to get a deal done, if they want Brandt Clarke from LA then Toronto has nothing they'd want.

3.) 16 Feb 2023 21:15:09
You realize that Clarke was in the trade for the sole purpose of dumping the Cal Peterson contract?



15 Feb 2023 15:40:22
I know people consider my trades heavily Leaf favourable but Dubas would consider these using to many prospects. I try to use outside experts projections on prospects and my dream scenarios.

Leafs trade Hiroven or Abruzzese, Robertson, 2024 1st, Steeves or Anderson, and Kerfoot to SJ for Meier with 50% cap hold. The only way Knies becomes part of this trade is if SJ signs Meier to a long term deal and holds some cap.

Leafs trade Sandin, 2023 1st, Kral, Holmstrom, and Voit to Arizona for Chyckrun and Ritchie or Bjugstadt with 50% cap hold for both.

The only significant cap retaining after this year is Chykrun so the Leafs may have to add another prospect. Leafs may use another team(s) to bring the cap holds down again.

Most of the prospects are considered middle of the lineup guys except Sandin who projects to a top pair (#2) guy. Anderson and Steeves are bottom six guys that may surprise in the right situation? These are the "experts" assessment not mine.

Kerfoot would probably get a 2nd or 3rd at the trade deadline for SJ?

Leafs either sign Meier going on or trade him at the draft to recoup assets. They could get a 2023 1st, a decent physical guy like Crouse or Bertuzzi, and a mid round pick at the draft.

In these trades Leafs get good players and a couple spaces on their 50 player list.

The other teams get a few roster players and some prospects the Leafs consider high risk/high reward because they have high hockey sense and compete level.


1.) 15 Feb 2023 16:19:19
- Dubas is on record saying he won't trade a 1st.

- Question: do you really think a team would trade a 2nd for Kerfoot and his 7 goals without retention?

2.) 15 Feb 2023 18:50:38
I do believe they would he is defensively gifted and is a playmaker not a goal scorer. That’s like saying you wouldn’t move a prime Joe Thortan for Mike Cammelari or Danault for Hoffman ( 4 years ago )

Different player play different rolls and Kerfoot is a sad man’s Danault ( extremely versatile )

3.) 16 Feb 2023 03:12:07
Dubas said he won’t trade a 1st or good prospect for a rental. These are not rentals.

4.) 16 Feb 2023 10:13:26
CRAWFORDG: You are 100% correct about the rental stipulation ?.



15 Feb 2023 00:32:29
Leafs trade Sandin, Robertson, 2023 1st, Hirvonen, Kerfoot, Hollowell, and Voit to Arizona for Crouse, Ritchie and Chykrun. Arizona keeps half cap on Ritchie and Chykrun.

Leafs use SD-A and Abruzzese to have other teams hold half the cap for Crouse and Chykrun.

Leafs get physicality and good cap hits, while the Coyotes get three roster players, one A-level prospect, two B-level prospects and a pick. Sandin was a first round pick, Robertson is considered the equivalent of a late first round pick, and then another late first round pick.

Kerfoot could be turned over for a second or third round pick.

This is what all-in looks like.

Hunt, Steeves or Simmons



If the Coyotes insist on Knies then Leafs keep Robertson but add Holmberg and Coyotes add Bjugstadt.


1.) 15 Feb 2023 15:37:35
Is that you Pinball? What a fantasy trade.

2.) 15 Feb 2023 19:00:10
JET: ??.



02 Feb 2023 15:44:43
Arizona trades Crouse (2mil retained) and Ritchie for Robertson, 2023 or 2024 1st (Leafs choice), Hirovan, Hollowell or Krall and a roster player like Hunt or ZAR. (TO provides list for Coyotes to pick from.

TO gets physical wingers for second line and bottom six. There is no way they include Knies because that is what they need.

Coyotes get potential second line winger and a first round pick plus a A level prospect, a bottom six forward to help with the tank, and B level prospect.


1.) 02 Feb 2023 17:25:35
ARI respectfully declines.

- leafs can't fit that deal in cap-wise.
- IF ARI wanted to get rid of Crouse, they wouldn't have to retain 2.15M x 5 seasons to move him.
- IF Crouse was available, he'd bring a better package back than this yard sale.
- Zero chance the leafs want Ritchie after having him on waivers before they sending him to ARI last year with picks.

2.) 02 Feb 2023 19:30:51
I don’t like the deal for either side but some of y’all are ridiculous. This is an identical offer to the Horvat deal and Crouse is not Horvat.

3.) 02 Feb 2023 20:14:16
Toronto respectfully declines.

4.) 03 Feb 2023 15:27:26
No way that Leaf’s want or take Ritchie back. They tried it, he didn’t work there. And IF they’re willing to part ways with a couple prospects and a 1st rounder, it’ll be for someone with a better track record than Crouse.




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24 Mar 2023 14:50:36
This looks to be a pretty good trade. I like the hometown focus.




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21 Mar 2023 14:48:56
I would like to see Bedard in VCR and am also a Leafs fan. A package with Boeser, Demko, A first round pick or two, Miller and OEL should be sufficient?




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21 Mar 2023 14:42:58
Montreal has incredible pressure so playing in that market the player will have to have their mental health in order. Those mentioned are fine goaltenders but they would be better to find a tandem that has at least one young guy. They should not go for recycling from the herd of guys that move around.

My suggestion is keep Allen as the vet or trade for Jarry or even Lindgren then find a second year or third year guy like Toronto has in Woll. Only don’t go after Woll because he will be in the NHL next year. I am a leaf fan. It is important to the League to have the Habs back in the playoffs.




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19 Mar 2023 15:36:25
I am a Leafs fan but would love to see Bedard in Canucks land. Home town boy, etc, etc.

It would be like McDavid coming to Toronto.




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13 Mar 2023 22:57:32
The team is in the top five and may post the best record ever for the Leafs again. It is the premier organization. Just because you disagree with what they have done doesn’t mean you are right. Shanahan transitioned the team from Burke to Lou to Dubas. Dubas is so far ahead of the curve that he would immediately be hired by another team if not rehired.

The team has one of the best collection of offensive players in the league. They have excellent special teams and are in the top quarter in the league in most defensive categories.

The prospect pool is above average considering the position they have been drafting in. It is even better when you consider the traded draft picks. Compare that to Tampa and Boston.

If you don’t think this rebuild was done right you are mistaken. This team was rebuilt right. Edmonton has been rebuilding for ten years and still haven’t got it right but they have an easier path to the cup than any team in the east.

You talk about how the Leafs haven’t done it right but don’t suggest what should have been done different. I disagreed with trading Kadri and not signing Hyman but I understand the thinking.

Pretty good team for one in a botched rebuild.





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